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	<title>Comments on: All we zombies</title>
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	<link>http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/</link>
	<description>Extraordinary claims. Ordinary investigations.</description>
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		<title>By: Joseph G. Mitzen</title>
		<link>http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-3839</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph G. Mitzen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/#comment-3839</guid>
		<description>Fantastic set of articles on free will. The only point I have an issue with is this one:

&quot;We already live every day with clear demonstrations that unconscious phenomena can have all the appearance of consciousness.
The thing that moved Chevreul’s pendulum was a philosophical zombie. And it lived inside his mind. &quot;

We don&#039;t _know_ that what moved the pendulum was a philosophical zombie. Isn&#039;t it possible that our &quot;subconscious&quot; is conscious, but separate and independent, and thus not experienced by us? You&#039;ve shown that the brain can fill in details for us and create memories, as well as filter many out. Perhaps the thoughts of the subconscious are but one more set of things that are filtered away from our conscious experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic set of articles on free will. The only point I have an issue with is this one:</p>
<p>&#8220;We already live every day with clear demonstrations that unconscious phenomena can have all the appearance of consciousness.<br />
The thing that moved Chevreul’s pendulum was a philosophical zombie. And it lived inside his mind. &#8221;</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t _know_ that what moved the pendulum was a philosophical zombie. Isn&#8217;t it possible that our &#8220;subconscious&#8221; is conscious, but separate and independent, and thus not experienced by us? You&#8217;ve shown that the brain can fill in details for us and create memories, as well as filter many out. Perhaps the thoughts of the subconscious are but one more set of things that are filtered away from our conscious experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Do Roombas Dream of Electric Sheep? &#124; forgetomori</title>
		<link>http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-2339</link>
		<dc:creator>Do Roombas Dream of Electric Sheep? &#124; forgetomori</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 09:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/#comment-2339</guid>
		<description>[...] and how we think it is, emerging instead from a complex pattern of unconscious processes. Perhaps we all have many little people who doesn’t understand English inside our brains, and yet, our brain is fully capable of “understanding” Shakespeare?While the pioneers of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and how we think it is, emerging instead from a complex pattern of unconscious processes. Perhaps we all have many little people who doesn’t understand English inside our brains, and yet, our brain is fully capable of “understanding” Shakespeare?While the pioneers of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Umbriel</title>
		<link>http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-355</link>
		<dc:creator>Umbriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 22:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/#comment-355</guid>
		<description>The definition of &quot;free will&quot; is frequently a muddy one, and no less so in the context of these experiments. Does &quot;free will&quot; mean the capacity to make decisions entirely independent of outside stimuli? That seems more to me like &quot;randomness&quot; than free will. All human thought is the product of a convergence of current stimuli, accumulated memory, and the characteristics of the thought medium itself (whether you believe that that&#039;s a purely material brain or a spirit-based consciousness or &quot;soul&quot;). Alteration of any or all of those factors, or &quot;vectors&quot; if you will, as they are effectively converging forces, may produce a different result in terms of the thoughts, decisions, and or actions of the subject. 

The fact that the decision process may not be instantaneous, but rather an extended chain of deliberation, does not, to my mind, &quot;disprove&quot; free will. It illustrates only that human perception of the world is not a pure experience of fact, but rather a convergence of numerous illusions -- Our visual focus is physically rather narrow, but our brain assembles a mosaic of images into a panoramic vision of our surroundings. Our consciousness necessarily functions at a lag relative to the events surrounding us. What we think of as the present is actually always slightly in the past. So the fact that my &quot;cognative footprint&quot; -- the interval that it takes to assess a situation and decide on a response to it -- may be longer than I perceive of it as being, hardly seems to me to &quot;disprove free will&quot;. It does, on the other hand, vividly illustrate that the mind is a bigger and more complicated thing than we generally perceive of it as being.

The question of consciousness in others is a more mysterious one though. Because, given our sensory and rational limitations, our own consciousness is perhaps the only thing we can be truly certain of (Descartes&#039; &quot;Cogito, ergo sum&quot;), we are prone to anthropomorphize -- to assume the consciousness of -- other things. In western culture, we typically rationally adjust that assumption in favor of creatures more like us, and against creatures less like us (as well as generally against inanimate objects), but that&#039;s a process that can be adjusted by cultural influences and personal experience. We tend to assume, though, that the robot turtles are not conscious like ourselves, and that other humans are -- even though those assumptions can never be confirmed with absolute certainty. As advancements in computing and robotics pose ever greater challenges to the Turing Test, we can expect deepening philosophical dilemmas in the future over how our consciousness biases should be resolved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The definition of &#8220;free will&#8221; is frequently a muddy one, and no less so in the context of these experiments. Does &#8220;free will&#8221; mean the capacity to make decisions entirely independent of outside stimuli? That seems more to me like &#8220;randomness&#8221; than free will. All human thought is the product of a convergence of current stimuli, accumulated memory, and the characteristics of the thought medium itself (whether you believe that that&#8217;s a purely material brain or a spirit-based consciousness or &#8220;soul&#8221;). Alteration of any or all of those factors, or &#8220;vectors&#8221; if you will, as they are effectively converging forces, may produce a different result in terms of the thoughts, decisions, and or actions of the subject. </p>
<p>The fact that the decision process may not be instantaneous, but rather an extended chain of deliberation, does not, to my mind, &#8220;disprove&#8221; free will. It illustrates only that human perception of the world is not a pure experience of fact, but rather a convergence of numerous illusions &#8212; Our visual focus is physically rather narrow, but our brain assembles a mosaic of images into a panoramic vision of our surroundings. Our consciousness necessarily functions at a lag relative to the events surrounding us. What we think of as the present is actually always slightly in the past. So the fact that my &#8220;cognative footprint&#8221; &#8212; the interval that it takes to assess a situation and decide on a response to it &#8212; may be longer than I perceive of it as being, hardly seems to me to &#8220;disprove free will&#8221;. It does, on the other hand, vividly illustrate that the mind is a bigger and more complicated thing than we generally perceive of it as being.</p>
<p>The question of consciousness in others is a more mysterious one though. Because, given our sensory and rational limitations, our own consciousness is perhaps the only thing we can be truly certain of (Descartes&#8217; &#8220;Cogito, ergo sum&#8221;), we are prone to anthropomorphize &#8212; to assume the consciousness of &#8212; other things. In western culture, we typically rationally adjust that assumption in favor of creatures more like us, and against creatures less like us (as well as generally against inanimate objects), but that&#8217;s a process that can be adjusted by cultural influences and personal experience. We tend to assume, though, that the robot turtles are not conscious like ourselves, and that other humans are &#8212; even though those assumptions can never be confirmed with absolute certainty. As advancements in computing and robotics pose ever greater challenges to the Turing Test, we can expect deepening philosophical dilemmas in the future over how our consciousness biases should be resolved.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Igou</title>
		<link>http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Igou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/#comment-253</guid>
		<description>Colin Wilson the mind parisites. Read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colin Wilson the mind parisites. Read it.</p>
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		<title>By: charles</title>
		<link>http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/comment-page-1/#comment-250</link>
		<dc:creator>charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://forgetomori.com/2007/skepticism/all-we-zombies/#comment-250</guid>
		<description>I got troubles with the &quot;no free will&quot; thing.   I decide the course my life will run, no one else does.   Completely on my own, I crafted excellent flutes from plumbers pipe, and still do.   They are fine, beautiful and precise instruments.  
   What &quot;programming&quot; caused Beethoven to make his works?   He would say they were his own ideas, and to anyone familiar with his works or the works of any creative original, and there are many, they would have to agree.   
   Most people find my works original, singular and creative. Any worthwhile and honest individual delving into the creative potential of the Cosmos and him/herself may yield completely singular and unique results not attributable to anyone else, as individual as a fingerprint.   
  A theory of conciousness should include a cogent explanation for acts of creation initiated and executed by individuals, completely on their own and often diametrically opposed to common views and beliefs.  
  The theory would have to explain why one would decide to give his life that others may survive, in spite of self survival programming.   
  The theory falls short of explaining basic human qualities. For example how does this theory address Individual Accomplishment, driven totally by forces inside the individual?  
  No effort has been made by this writer or any other writer that I have come across to explain how and why creatures who have no conciousness or free will can manifest individual works of Creation that change the World, and inspire, foster, and shelter the rest of us. 

God bless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got troubles with the &#8220;no free will&#8221; thing.   I decide the course my life will run, no one else does.   Completely on my own, I crafted excellent flutes from plumbers pipe, and still do.   They are fine, beautiful and precise instruments.<br />
   What &#8220;programming&#8221; caused Beethoven to make his works?   He would say they were his own ideas, and to anyone familiar with his works or the works of any creative original, and there are many, they would have to agree.<br />
   Most people find my works original, singular and creative. Any worthwhile and honest individual delving into the creative potential of the Cosmos and him/herself may yield completely singular and unique results not attributable to anyone else, as individual as a fingerprint.<br />
  A theory of conciousness should include a cogent explanation for acts of creation initiated and executed by individuals, completely on their own and often diametrically opposed to common views and beliefs.<br />
  The theory would have to explain why one would decide to give his life that others may survive, in spite of self survival programming.<br />
  The theory falls short of explaining basic human qualities. For example how does this theory address Individual Accomplishment, driven totally by forces inside the individual?<br />
  No effort has been made by this writer or any other writer that I have come across to explain how and why creatures who have no conciousness or free will can manifest individual works of Creation that change the World, and inspire, foster, and shelter the rest of us. </p>
<p>God bless.</p>
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